Curse

Fantus · Sep 19, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Fantas: it's a good thing you aren't a lawyer...the license is not your property. The license is ArenaNets property. You're property is the CD, The Box, and The Manual....nothing else belongs to you.

The GAME is Anets property. What you own when you buy the game is the game box and the right to use the game. This right to use it (the license) IS transferrable in most countries, as far as I know. The only way to restrict reselling of a license is a signed treaty between you and Anet. EULAs don't count as they are quite unenforcible in most cases.

Algren Cole · Sep 19, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

The GAME is Anets property. What you own when you buy the game is the game box and the right to use the game. This right to use it (the license) IS transferrable in most countries, as far as I know. The only way to restrict reselling of a license is a signed treaty between you and Anet. EULAs don't count as they are quite unenforcible in most cases.

That's where you are wrong...the only thing ArenaNet needs to enforce a rule against selling license keys is a ban button. Don't like it? don't buy the game. You don't own the license...the license gives you the right to said amount of space on a server that ArenaNet owns...you own nothing but the box the cd and the manual...everything else you borrow from Arenanet while you play. They have the right to deny you the Privelage of playing on their servers for any reason they want. Hell they could pick 1 account a week out of a hat and ban it and there isn't shit you can do about it.

Sir Skullcrasher · Sep 19, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

That's where you are wrong...the only thing ArenaNet needs to enforce a rule against selling license keys is a ban button. Don't like it? don't buy the game. You don't own the license...the license gives you the right to said amount of space on a server that ArenaNet owns...you own nothing but the box the cd and the manual...everything else you borrow from Arenanet while you play. They have the right to deny you the Privelage of playing on their servers for any reason they want. Hell they could pick 1 account a week out of a hat and ban it and there isn't shit you can do about it.

I agree with you Algen

Like all the game out there, what we buy is the Case, and CD (does the same goes with console games) And yes, it developers choice if they want to ban people for any reasons.

As for the OP, sorry that your account got banned but the truth is that any accounts that is for sale on ebay is probably not legit or got obtain illegally so beware!

My-Excuse · Sep 19, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

isn't that illegal algren? because of the nature of most MMORPG's, ANY content on the CD is not accessable unless you are on their internet server. thats like selling a CD with a bunch of music on it but it requires a password, if you don't have the password (or a working cd-key in this situation) all you have is a CD that might as well be used as a drink coaster.

its funny, Anet still has not responded to my e-mails...

Draygo Korvan · Sep 19, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

anet doesn't lose money....the credit card company still pays them the $50. They have no reason to care. Everyone totes Anet as being "the gamers big brother"...they don't give a damn about you or whether you get to play the game. They just want the $50...just like any other well run American Business. Kudos ArenaNet

Sorry cole, that isnt true. Anet got nothing if the orginal buyer witheld the payment.

Also support team was always relitivly fast in getting back to my requests. Did you check on the status of your support ticket? If it says updated you might want to put down another comment to speed things along. Especially if they are looking for information from you.

Fantus · Sep 19, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

That's where you are wrong...the only thing ArenaNet needs to enforce a rule against selling license keys is a ban button. Don't like it? don't buy the game. You don't own the license...the license gives you the right to said amount of space on a server that ArenaNet owns...you own nothing but the box the cd and the manual...everything else you borrow from Arenanet while you play. They have the right to deny you the Privelage of playing on their servers for any reason they want. Hell they could pick 1 account a week out of a hat and ban it and there isn't shit you can do about it.

That they technically could ban me anytime for any reason doesn't mean that it would be legal for them to do so. I guess I could sue them for banning me for no good reason, but probably it wouldn't get me far because no judge would accept a such a case. So in a way you are right. You still OWN the license, though and thus in THEORY you would be entitled to give it to anyone you wish. So I guess we're both right, in a way.

KuTeBaka · Sep 19, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

That they technically could ban me anytime for any reason doesn't mean that it would be legal for them to do so. I guess I could sue them for banning me for no good reason, but probably it wouldn't get me far because no judge would accept a such a case. So in a way you are right. You still OWN the license, though and thus in THEORY you would be entitled to give it to anyone you wish. So I guess we're both right, in a way.

It says in the EULA that ANET can ban any account for any reason.

glockjs · Sep 20, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Ebay, the largest yard sale of crap in the world. sucks that happened to you, but like said before: buyer beware.......

My-Excuse · Sep 20, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17

24 hours since a reply from ANet/PlayNC. i have sent 3 reply e-mails to them..

i think it should be a rule that if some one doesn't get a reply in 72 hours, they get whatever punishment revoked...

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 20, 2005, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

I am no lawyer, but I am not entirely sure if this part of the EULA is even legal in most countries. You can't simply put a piece of paper into a sealed box and prohibit people from selling or giving away a piece of their property (the license is a piece of YOUR property) to other people.

No, it is not your property. You are paying for the "right" to use their product.

You might have seen, while installing Windows, that you only own a license [A license is not a deed or title of ownership; the word itself denotes "approved for use", compare with your Driver's License, it can be taken away from you] to Windows or even all the software on your computer.

It's all in what you agree to, no matter how totaliarian it sounds

Quote:

Originally Posted by My-Excuse

the EULA also state that only people 18 or older can open an account. im guessing around 50+% of the people who installed and created accounts on Guild wars are under 18.

This certainly doesn't make the EULA void, you're more or less arguing ethics of the EULA and not what it actually says. I'm not certain or clear on weither or not this is against the EULA (afterall, all the guy said was "That's against the EULA!": a common sign that they don't know what they are talking about

Let's get a quote in here)

You, however, seem to have confirmed that you think it was against the EULA and even that you've read it before.

Also, in theory, a Parent/Gaurdian does not have to directly press the button, merely have total consent to do so, if I understand correctly.

Please feel free to debate or correct any of this >.<

Algren Cole · Sep 20, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

Sorry cole, that isnt true. Anet got nothing if the orginal buyer witheld the payment.

Also support team was always relitivly fast in getting back to my requests. Did you check on the status of your support ticket? If it says updated you might want to put down another comment to speed things along. Especially if they are looking for information from you.

That's why credit cards have protection...they pay regardless. Credit Card companies lose millions of dollars a year in fraudulent purchases. It's a commonly known fact...you can look it up on google. The credit card company pays Anet.

Fantus: You can't "own" a license key...the license key gives you the privelage to play on the server...i.e. rent space. It is not your personal property. It's not property at all....it ALWAYS belongs to arenanet. You RENT time/space on a server....which can be revoked at any time for any reason. Anet doesn't owe you the right to play.

Grubcat · Sep 20, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

[QUOTE=Algren Cole]That's why credit cards have protection...they pay regardless. Credit Card companies lose millions of dollars a year in fraudulent purchases. It's a commonly known fact...you can look it up on google. The credit card company pays Anet.

I work in retail, and if a customer disputes a charge due to non-receipt or fraudulent use, and the dispute is upheld, the customer doesn't pay his bill, and the credit card company gets the money back from us.

My-Excuse · Sep 20, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

sagius, i confirmed that yes, buying an account on Ebay or from a friend, or family member or anyone without actually purchasing it from a company who sells it to you un-used and un-opened IS against the EULA. I just think that if ANet knows this goes on, instead of going after those who don't know any better, they should be going after the people who innitiate the practice.

Go to ebay right now and you will see that virtual gold is sold for almost every single MMORPG out there. you don't see people getting slammed for this. i mean ANet could easily go in undercover and find out the account names of these people (which is easy to do), and ban them. yet they dont.

Also, if Anet still gets money, why would i lose my account? i think ANet DID lose money, otherwise i would not have lost the account...

(until the other day, for every game i have ever played MMORPG or anything else online based, i have always bought my games in a similar fashion, so technically i just found out that it was against the EULA).

oh and i was joking about the 72 hour thing algren, if that is what you are refering to.

Gaile Gray · Sep 20, 2005, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Let me end the speculation on a few things:

When credit card fraud takes place, we do not keep the money. Visa doesn't lose; the person who committed the fraud doesn't lose. When this happens, there is usually a pretty sophisticated entity behind it, and we lose quite a lot of money a day to these CC scams.
A lot of this is done with stolen credit cards. Someone gets a key via stolen CC, resells it, and when it is discovered to be unpaid for (since the charge is cancelled by the CC company) the account is closed.
EULAs most definitely have been upheld in court. See Blizzard Entertainment vs. BnetD, a recent settlement of a EULA case. (Hint: The EULA violators lost.)
There is a reason we have relationships with vendors. I wouldn't consider buying from someone who wasn't authorized and if you think you can get something priced at $50 for $30, you should think twice.
We do care about this.

I cannot say why you have not heard from Support. Certainly you should have heard within a few hours, at most. If you do not hear from them by tomorrow, send me your ticket number via PM here and I will see that you get a response.

I'm very sorry for what happened to you. But thank you for posting, for you have probably warned a few others about such scams, and hopefully they can avoid the hassles due to the information that you have provided.

Alcaza Bedabra · Sep 20, 2005, 08:57 AM // 08:57

EULA was written by Anet's Lawyers, not the developers... just to clear that up.

Gee, Algren. Why do you hate the dev's so much? lol.

Alcaza Bedabra · Sep 20, 2005, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Take another look at the Terms of Service.

Generally there's a section in there about the company's obligations to the costomer. These generally involve providing the service they promise you, and responding within a given timeframe to your support emails and such.

A short list, but meaningful.

Alcaza Bedabra · Sep 20, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Nope, illegitemate according to the EULA. Questioning the legality of the lisence agreement itself is an entirely different matter.

Being outlawed (sorta), the practice of selling accounts is generally done by people who want to steal money or accounts.

I've had enough experience with this sort of thing in other MMO's and seen enough horror stories to be able to tell you definitively that you should run screaming from the next guy that offers to sell you an account.

It's just too damn often someone trying to scam you.

Pelias · Sep 20, 2005, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by My-Excuse

24 hours since a reply from ANet/PlayNC. i have sent 3 reply e-mails to them..

i think it should be a rule that if some one doesn't get a reply in 72 hours, they get whatever punishment revoked...

OMFG LOL!
Go try playing other mmorpgs, ok? In EVE Online typical reply time is over 5 days. Sometimes you'll wait over a week with no answer, just to get informed that your ticked was resolved and closed for no reason. My personal record with them was seven weeks to get few useless lost items back And you pay 15€ for that!
Every other mmo is like that. And they're all pay to play!

By law*, A.net have 14 days to reply to your complaint.

Whinning that they didn't reply in such complicated case within 24 hours
is totally awesome!

Hanuman li Tosh · Sep 20, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

you can sit around and 'ebate' the legality of it, but the bottom line is you broke the rule you got popped. the rule is GW is non transferable, and you transfered it. sorry. all i can say is buy a legit key and try to follow the legal process to get your money back.

aron searle · Sep 20, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

you can sit around and 'ebate' the legality of it, but the bottom line is you broke the rule you got popped. the rule is GW is non transferable, and you transfered it. sorry. all i can say is buy a legit key and try to follow the legal process to get your money back.

Get of your high horse.

He bought it second hand and the seller was a con, he then discovered you cant buy it second hand according to the EULA.

Which paradoxically is inside the box that he bought second hand, opps to late.

And before anyone says the EULA was on the website, dont. I mean are you telling me you go and read the EULA on the website before buying ANY game, dont even bother trying to lie on that one (someone already has).

And if you click on the link i provided earlier you will see EULA is not 100% law, as courts have ruled against and for them.

PIRACY IS ILLIGAL, just to get that straight.

But re-selling a game YOU have paid for is abit of a grey area. The Law says that if you have bought something you own it, you cant lease it but can sell it, the EULA says you buy a licence to play. Hence why court rullings have gone both ways.

I dont buy pirate games, nor do i copy them. I am a legit user, but i hate EULA's as they stiffle the rights of the HONEST players, whilst those not so honest simply find ways to abuse them.

Maybe i need to get off my high horse too.